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Preacher: "err - how-- what's going on?
How did you do--wha-- who are you?"
Man:- "None of that is important. We need to talk about the sermon you just gave, preacher."
Preacher: - "What-- what about it?"
Man: - "You just advocated the death penalty for gay people."
Preacher: - "So what?"
Man: - "You so passionately speak out against gay people in your sermons."
Preacher: - "Well, God says it's a detestable abomination."
Man: - "You're referring to Leviticus chapter 18 verse 22, and chapter 20 verse 13, a book by a very specific culture with very specific rules. Many rules, yet you concentrate so much on that one in particular."
Preacher: "Well yeah, but it's just-- it's not just the old testament it's- it's also Romans, uh, Chapter 1 verses 26 through 27. Paul, uh, said it's unnatural."
Man: - "By unnatural, the bible simply means non-coital. We have a different conception of what is **natural** now... If your concern regards the modern context, consider that you drive a car, and type at a computer. Is that **natural**?"
Preacher: - "Well... for people, maybe..maybe so."
Man: - "For people... animals engage in non-coital sexual acts all the time, even within the same gender and sometimes even within monogamous relationships, so according to your modern standard of natural, homosexuality is natural.
But according to the Bible, even heterosexual acts are unnatural, if they're not done with the explicit intent to produce children."
Preacher: - "Okay well, so what if animals do it, does that mean we're supposed to behave like animals now?"
Man:- "No differently than you behave like an animal when you have sex with people of the opposite gender.
No differently than when you sleep, drink, and breathe; just like the animals. Animals rape, kill, and steal from each other too. The fact that all of that is natural doesn't make it **right**.
The fact that something is unnatural doesn't make it wrong, to argue so, is a fallacy."
Preacher: - "Look, God said it, I believe it. End of discussion."
Man: - "You're sure God said it?"
Preacher: - "Yes."
Man: - "Do you think homosexuality is detestable?"
Preacher: - "Of course!"
Man: - "So, don't you think others found it detestable as well?"
Preacher: - "Yeah, so?"
Man: - "So, wouldn't enshrining their opinions as the word of God, by presuming to speak for God, be a valid way to make their opinions authoritative? After all, if God is for us, who can be against us?"
Preacher: - "Oh so they just blatantly lied for no reason?"
Man: - "Why does it have to be a lie? Maybe it was honest, psychological projection. Or, maybe they did have a reason."
Preacher: - "Yeah, they did, same as my reason."
Man: - xThink again. Think about what it was like back then. There were not 7 and a half billion people in the world like there is today. Having a lot of children was seen by many as a duty. The tribe not only needed to be replenished, especially during such a time of high mortality. But also needed to grow to compete with other tribes lest they perish. So of course certain people saw it as immoral to engage in sexual acts that would not resolve in children. According to the bible, God even killed Onan for having straight sex in such a way that would not result in children.
Yet you don't give hundreds of passionate sermons about that. I find the reasons for your focus on gay people to be dubious, as if you're trying to justify your feelings after the fact."
Preacher: - "Look, circumstances were different back then sure, but God was not. God doesn't change. Morality doesn't change."
Man: - "Maybe so, but that would not change the fact that the moral answer isn't always the same given different contexts. Right now, there are billions of people, and we rely on complex systems of industry and infrastructure with a lot of automation just to be able to maintain our huge population. Having many children was an important issue back then, but is it now?
Even from a biological standard, a standard supposedly created by this very same God, it does not make sense that sex would or should only occur for procreation, when you consider a woman's natural **cycle of infertility** every month, or the man's mismatched potential to **conceive far more children than the women could ever bear**."
Preacher: - "Homosexuality is still **immoral**."
Man: - "Immoral? Isn't choice a requisite of morality?"
Preacher: - "Of course!"
Man:- "So, when you look at another man, you think it's possible for you to **choose** to find him attractive? That it's possible for you to **choose** to be aroused by him? You **choose** to get an erection when you see him?"
Preacher:- "Me? No! Absolutely not."
Man:- "Then why would you expect a gay person to be able to **choose** to be aroused by someone of the
opposite gender? Is it a **choice** to find a joke funny? Can you **choose** to not like your favorite music?
Can you **choose** to think your favorite food tasted bad? Can you simply *"choose** your attractions?
Or can you just remain in **denial** of them?"
Preacher: - "Ok by the same logic, you can't say it's immoral to be attracted to children."
Man:- "But it is immoral to make the choice to act upon that attraction."
Preacher: "Bam! There you go! I can say the same about gay people. Not immoral to be attracted, but immoral to act upon."
Man: - "No, you can't say that. What makes it wrong to act upon a child is not the same as what you're saying makes it wrong to act upon an adult. The reason pedophilia is wrong is because of consent, but adults of the same gender can consent. The reason you think acting upon the adult is wrong, is not because of consent, but because God supposedly thinks it's detestable. You think pedophilia is wrong too, but ironically the God of the bible never said pedophilia is detestable.
In fact, the bible says nothing about pedophilia. As one who prides himself on using the bible as a moral foundation, it's rather disconcerting that God has neglected to address that particular crime. Fortunate then, that you managed to figure out that pedophilia is bad, even though many beloved biblical characters were of cultures that did not perceive sex with children as a problem, which is probably also why they never said God declared it wrong or detestable.
Mary herself was believed to be married to Joseph when she was only 13 years old."
Preacher: - "Well I mean it's..it's just that it--"
Man: - "You find homosexuality icky, and you're trying to impose your preferences on everyone else,
same as other authoritarians who have come before you. Maybe though, it's deeper than that.
Maybe, because you were indoctrinated into this belief, you naturally feel ashamed of certain attractions you have, so you try to compensate for them."
Preacher: - "No.... th...the bible--"
Man: - "This isn't about the bible. Let's be frank.
**This is about you.**"